The Basics of Long Range Shooting – Episode 85

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  • Pete and I talk about extreme long range and ultra long range shooting. There is a lot that goes into being successful in the long range shooting disciplines. Its a fascinating subject. You don’t want to miss this podcast episode.

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The Basics of Long Range Shooting Episode 85

00:00:01 – 00:05:01

Praise the lord and pass the ammunition. It’s time for the GunGuyTV podcast. I’m Joel Persinger. I’m the gun guy. Thank you very much for all of your support of GunGuyTV and everything that you do. I am super grateful for all of your help. This is a Going to be a little different podcast today. Because i’m going to change the format of the podcast a little bit having been a radio guy and been in broadcasting for a long time i tend to do any kind of audio show like i would do a radio show where i break it into segments and i put availabilities for commercials in there that kind of stuff and that’s not really podcasting. I’m learning and so. I’m i tended to do that with the podcast when i first started. And i’m going to stop that because it’s a lot of extra work for me and it’s probably not as much fun for you so rather than formatting this thing like a radio show i’m just gonna format it like a conversation. I will put a little bumpers in there periodically. Just to remind you you’re listening. What the heck you’re listening to an it’ll tell you you’re listening to the gun guy. Tv firearms podcast. Or whatever but other than that. I i’m not gonna do. I really don’t want this to become a commercial enterprise. Either i think so to the degree that you’d like to support gun guy. Tv in the podcast. I certainly would appreciate that. And there are myriad different ways you can do it. You can do it by using our amazon link if you want to. I’ve explained that a million times. You can do it by Just i don’t know you can give us a donation you can go to the gun guy. Tv website again guy dot tv and you can hit donate and you can donate a little money. Whatever you wish to do. But i’d prefer that it’s really an exercise in supporting the second amendment. And not so much a commercial enterprise if somebody wants to sponsor the podcasts at some point or other then we’ll talk about that at the very beginning i’ll mention them and then we’re going to go on through the podcast. We’re not gonna talk about it anymore. Right now practical defense systems is our sponsor and that’s the company i own so if you’re in california and you’re interested security guard training. It is the best security guard training at the lowest prices. And you can do it all online on demand on any mobile device. So you go. That’s the advertising for practical defense systems for today. Pete elmore my friend and cohort and Co weirdo shooter. In like oh. I’m sorry. the last thing. I should’ve mentioned was i- in this one. This is audio only if it’s public and That’s going to be the case. Even on patriae on the first half hour is free. it’s available on your favorite podcast player. The next half hour is available oland patriots so whenever we get to thirty minutes. Whatever we’re talking about ends and we end up one arrest of it over unpatriotic. I’m not going to be too structured about it But if you want to hear the whole thing and go to patriot The other thing is that s. A public podcast. I i’m gonna leave it audio only because just easier to get on your public on your podcast player. We’ll put a video version with thumbnail up on public places like youtube bitchy. And so on. But what i’m planning on doing is when we record this recording it with video and then putting the video version the full version full one hour version with video on the unpatriotic so it won’t just be audio only on patriot. I may put to up there one audio only one video and that way you can consume it whichever way you want all right having said that pete and i were shooting the breeze about a lot of things. I know one of the things we want to talk about was long. Great super duper Long distance shooting. Because i’m not into that. And i don’t know squat about it and you do well. I’ve i’ve played around with for longtime you recall. We went out to Would to arrange between us and shot out to about nine hundred yards. Shy nine hundred. You shot things at nine hundred yards. I shot at things that you need a few times. I did not come on. That’s the farthest i’ve ever shot in my life. Maybe prior to that. I think i told you that day. The farthest i never shot anything was Maybe two hundred yards or something right around there to fifty. I don’t remember. Oh i take it back. I did shoot at a gong. One time at five hundred sixty yards. And i did collaborate. You know a couple of times out of twenty shots or something but it was you know luck of the draw right but no i you got me you got me pretty much hidden somewhat consistently out there that day at nine hundred yards and i was amazed. I it’s it’s a lot of fun it’s You know you take the shot. At those distances it takes a it takes takes the round more than a second to get there and So you actually see it hit well before you hear it and you can see the bullet with the trail going through the portrayal. You could see a vapor trail that’s trying to think if you could see the vapor which is very cool. Yeah especially when it. Especially that distance is arguing up quite a ways of the dropping back ed On the target.

00:05:02 – 00:10:42

And it’s like a good chip shot for a field goal kicker. You watch go up. You’re gonna make it back down to time well and reloading is a big deal right now because of the ammunition stuff. A lot of folks are hinting and some are not hinting summer. Just coming out. And saying it’s a conspiracy i i don’t think it’s a conspiracy mean remington filed for bankruptcy and remington was producing a tremendous amount of ammunition. And of course ammo factory. I believe was shut down for a period during that time which took a lot of ammunition on public Out of the public Availability and then people panic buying which we saw that with toilet paper for crying out loud toilet paper and ammunition. They don’t go together but they can both be panicked purchase. And so i think that’s largely it but when you’re reloading how does it differ. Pardon me as a save you think about it. We sold some more north of ten million new firearms last year to first time buyers and if every single new buyer went home with just two boxes of ammo that’s twenty million boxes of ammo big soul. Well that you can’t you can’t buy so many people freaking out now getting into reloading because they feel like it’s a necessity not because it’s a hobby for me. It’s a hobby. And i enjoy doing it for you. Same thing but for a lot of folks now. it’s oh my gosh. I’m preparing for the end of the world. Well you’re primers. Which is why you can’t find primers anywhere and air. Go you’re You know i was talking to sampras about this people by reloading components for guns. Don’t even have the gun to fire the round. So he said he talked to store owners where people will come in and say well. I need I need to buy this and this and this for this caliber for nine millimeter. Why i don’t have any of that. Well how about how about two to three. I don’t have any of that. What do you got well. I’ve got six point. Five creed more will. I don’t have a gun for that. Well that’s all. I got okay. I’ll take it like what. What are they going to do with it. They’re going to load the nation can’t but they’re they’re buying up the stuff that they don’t even aren’t plan on using or have no way to to consume it and i think that’s a contributing factor to the lack of stuff. Well think people think they’re going to be able to trade or barter you know like there’s gonna be some towns square where people stand around and go. Hey i got six flat grade. More six. got a toolbox at six hundred three more who got three three zero three minutes. Come on back that the back. You know you’re pretty good at that. I’ve attended a few options. Actually bought a couple of cars at auction once. And you’re actually pretty good. It’s where you’re you ever an auction ear by any chance i have. I have done some charity auctions so it had had a ton of fun with it but But yeah it’s it’s by what you can shoot. Leave leave the leave the rest for other people you know. Sure i mean i you know. But that the point. I brought up with the whole I was actually going somewhere actually had a destination. I didn’t get there. But i had a destination. My what i was going to mention was the fact that with reloading. Just listening to you. Because i when you and i talked about reloading stuff. You’re really the precision reloading guy. Where i’m cranking out a of nine millimeter to go the range or a bunch of forty or something like that or i’m i’m cranking out a box a thirty aught six. Because i’m might go knock down a deer with it or something that two hundred and fifty yards. But you’re you’re loading something that you’re planning on shooting fifteen hundred yards thousand yards in your re loading precision. Requirements are much much different than mine as a result. and i. you’ve mentioned that before. And i don’t and frankly to truthfully i don’t understand it. Can you elaborate on their their whole their whole lot of different factors that come into play when it comes into a reloading for ular ultra-long-range extreme long range shooting just to begin with when you’re talking we’re talking those distances. Eight hundred nine hundred yards and out You’re talking about significant drop on the round and velocity is as everybody knows makes a huge difference in In in how much drop you’re going to have you’ll see a you’ll see twenty five fifty feet per second difference between a hot quote unquote hot factor round and another round in the exact. Same box makes when you’re shooting those distances. You’re trying to hit the twelve inch target. That’s the difference between hitting it and not hitting it is is that you know being going all the way over and going all the way under so you’ll see most of the guys that shoot long range are looking for a standard deviation of ten feet per second or less the guys that are really really tight are doubted five feet per second or less go through a box of twenty loads and they’re gonna go majority of ninety five percent are going to be between twenty eight fifty and twenty eight fifty five feet per second whether using magnus speed or elaborate or whatever and they’re all going to be consistent.

00:10:44 – 00:15:18

You’re listening to the gun guy tv podcast and then and then you have guys that Depending on on how much. Ocd you’ve got who will take an entire box of bullets and weigh them individually and then group them by their weight Yet says it’s one hundred seventy five round or a three hundred grain round but what you’ll find is there’s some two ninety nine point two and there some three hundred point sixes and some of these are some of those in so some guys will actually break goes out into into groups and group of that way in load them that way and then you have In order to get that in order to get that standard deviation veloce you’ve got to have a charge load that’s very very consistent so everybody knows about little trickle chargers. Well i mean there’s a guy that’s got a whole setup in own. My goodness is inexpensive. But it’s amazing to watch. It’s got a electron scale. It’s hooked up to a computer Ish of sorts. That is hooked up to a trickle charger. That’s all everything’s all motorized than it drops it drops loaded and then it trickled charges in. It’s supposed to be within attempt of grain all my less. There’s an and they just keep going up there. That whole setup his well north of five hundred dollars. And that’s not in my price range for just a powder scale so i’ll go with the old beam style in my And my aging is trying to make everything everything way about the same like that. Also factors in there Changing the pressure based on. How your bullets seated. You know if you’re bullets seated far back into the cartridge the volume inside the cartridges less and therefore as the powder starts to burn you will have a lower amount of volume for the power to burn and therefore you’ll have a higher pressure spike whereas if it seated way way way The end you have more space and so the pressure spike need not be sharp in front. That may not be as high And then you’ve got. How far out should the bullet be. Then you wear the land start in. Where does your chamber and in the in the barrel begin. Meaning where’s the sleuth part. Stop and where did the lands begin. Because is that. Because you don’t wanna you want to reduce the jump that the has to make from the cartridge to the the land and it’s in the rifling that’s correct so there is the do Do chamber remaining that You know they’ll adjust where the land start based on where you tell them that you’re going to load ammo at what overall length etc etc etc etc or you may have a gun that’s already set up and so there are i think it’s horrid. That makes it. They make a karcher that fits in you. Gotta take the bullets out the cartridge in. And then you twist the dial. It runs the bullet up or the fake bullet up to where it touches the lands. And then you can get the actual measurement of how long it is some guys bring it back five thousand some guys bringing it back nine thousands some guys able anything under ten’s okay etc etc you. What a little gap there. But you don’t want a huge gap there so all of that. Every last bit of that affects Affects the the the round goes down because everything is so in- insanely magnified if you’re gonna just fifteen hundred yards a if you’re muzzle or if you’re barrel is off to hundreds of a degree that’s Something like eighteen inches at fifteen hundred yards while at to hundreds of great degree just means that your muzzle has moved about thirteen thousands.

00:15:21 – 00:20:02

So the the you when. I think of precision shooting. I’ve always thought of the quality build of the rifle itself and all the various parts and pieces and adjustments to go into that. But i never really thought about the ammunition as much but it sounds to me like everything needs to be accounted for right down even to the sickness of the brass or the because as you mentioned pressure changes based upon the volume inside the brass of the brass thickness changes dramatically. Does that affect your accuracy as well sure because that’s a that’s a change in the In the available call it the the number of cubic millimetres inside the inside the the case or a given of powder to burn and guys will guys will have and i do to an extent to weigh their brass because you know heavier brass has got thicker walls and therefore you don’t you don’t Have as much space on the inside given that the outside is exactly the same size. Does anybody go to the trouble to actually take a micrometer or a or a calendar something and measure the thickness of the brash on on these things. I don’t know that he was doing that. I think the hardest part would be headed how to do that. Because you’ve got a small opening several things but if if you if you size if you do a fully size or even used just an excise and rely on the fire form on your your Brass that’s a whole other. Discussion be annexed sizing fulling sized level of okay. Well there’s a discussion. Why what’s the now. I do know the difference with that but if my understanding is that fire forming the brass that brass’s now all you’re doing his neck sizing up because you because you intend to fire that round from the same rifle and the brass’s already fire for him to that chamber right and so there’s a lot to be said for next sizing so that you’re not. You’re not there’s no slop or play or there’s less lop and play between the side of the brass and the chamber. That is being fired in. We were talking. I think we were talking the other day about bullets seating and how the die is really work on self aligning bullet into into the breast. We were talking about the difference between my lead. Loadmaster and What you need in order to what do what you have to do which in which is a precision level probably one hundred precision levels above above. What my my progressive presses capable of doing so there are there are there are tools with micrometres on them. That will measure. You’ll figure turn a bullet around or an entire round cartridge and all around and it’ll measure helmets deflection. The tip has back and forth down into the half thousand range. Ed you can see how straight the round is seated because that’s going to affect how it goes into the lands That’s gonna affect how it goes down the barrel that’s going to affect us. Part of the reason why you want a little bit of jump is to try and correct any anything that might be off there. It’s going to affect the the aerodynamics. What you get out of the barrel so you talk about just to clarify. What are you talking about ballistics three three areas of ballistics that. You’ll talk about others internal ballistics external ballistics and terminal ballistics short backwards terminal. Ballistics is what happens when the round hits whatever. It’s supposed to be hitting not so much a big deal in target shooting. But if you are taking a a if you’re taking game at some distance two hundred yards four hundred yards terminal. Ballistics is how well is mushroom. How well does it hold together. How well does it penetrate. That’s terminal ballistic shooting strain and always right on target. This is a gun guy to podcast further. I mean some people will particularly if you’re a new shooter and you’re and you’re not a hundred and your or you’re just not a hundred and you listen to that and you think well ashes really horrible will actually no.

00:20:02 – 00:25:13

It’s not terminal ballistics very important because if you are hunting moose like my like my My friend brought up in alaska or something or you’re hunting some big game animal. You wanna stop. You wanna kill that animal humanely in what the animal to go down right. There were very close to right there. You don’t wanna wound the animal and have the animal gopher you know a time in agonizing pain and you know for two three four hundred yards or a quarter of a mile or something along those lines so that that terminal. Ballistics is super important. When you’re looking at From the standpoint of hunting and it’s very important for hunters not from the standpoint of being cruel but precisely the opposite. The idea is to take the grain. Take the game in a humane fashion and show terminal. Ballistics are very important to do that. That’s correct exactly right and External ballistics is what happens when the bullet is out of the barrel on its way to the target and that has to do with the air density temperature pressure altitude. You name it. All of those factors come into play in an internal ballistics or the start of the shot. Is everything that happens inside the gun. So the parameter goes off in the pressure starts to spike Inside the inside the case from the primer going off does the round unseat itself and move forward to the or or not With the powder goes off. How much room is there. What’s the pressure spike. What is the pressure gradient. Look like from the beginning of the From the beginning of the burn to the round exiting the the muzzle. Then you have All of the harmonic to go in place One of the things it fascinates this fascinates me about this field. Is the physics. Just the plain physics involved you know for. Every action is equal and opposite reaction so as the bullet goes down the barrel. The barrel is forcing the twists onto the bullet. The bullet is trying to untwisted the barrel at the same time. Which is why you typically see target barrels big thicker and heavier than hunting barrel because they’ll a heat up because you’re shooting over and over and over and you need some way to absorb that energy but you don’t want them to whip or twist to any more than any more than you can prevent it. Would you look at. You’re talking about the precision of how the rifles made The stiffness with which it’s made is there any flex anywhere The whole rifle is like a tuning fork. And there’s going to be certain frequencies that will will resonate within the gun and you’ll get barrel movement of you know x. thousands of an inch or x. fractures of the thousands of an inch barrel is the is the round goes down. The goes down the barrel with you. You got forty fifty thousand psi behind that round Yeah the barrels pretty sick. It’s some pretty tough metal but at the same time in fifty thousand psi is going to have an effect on that on that steal and it’s going to cause some limited amount of flex and all of that combined than how rigid is the chassis and housing anchored. You it it. It a thousand yards. If the perfectly come win you’re going to see a difference in your point of impact if you shoot off a sandbag and then you turn around and shoot off tripod because that changes the harmonic of the firearm. You’re going to get you’re going to get some sliding movement off the sandbag. You’re gonna get some residents off the off the tripod that will make a difference in where the where the round impacts when i think of louis ultra-long range shooting personally. When i think of it my indoctrination into that i guess or just in my indoctrination to the awareness of it was watching competitions watching them do it in competition whereas i th. I suspect that the average person’s indoctrination into the knowledge of that is watching movies. Or whatever when you’ve got the the special ops sniper shooting at some phenomenal distance ryan you know really when you talk about ultra long range shooting as a result the first thing that pops into my head is the competitions that i’ve watched i don’t and i was never in the military so i don’t i don’t have a military.

00:25:13 – 00:30:14

I don’t have the military experience to to lean back on having watched those competitions. You mentioned it calm wind but or wendy temperature. All of those things come into play. Don’t the and and humidity and elevation and all that stuff sort of comes into play too. Doesn’t it yeah every bit of it. Would you look at all the factors that go into the going to making his shot. I mean you start with. Just start with the ammo temperature. The powder will burn at a different rate at forty degrees. That will aid. Or are you talking about the temperature of the actual cartridge. The actual ammo. Yeah not the temperature that reaches when it burns but the starting temperature when you take it out of the box and you put it in the magazine of the rifle the temperature of that particular around. I have for extreme for extremes day with it. Excuse me. But i had my bag for extremes. The infrared thermometer at all. Take a look. And i’ll shoot the. I’ll take a temperature on on the case to see where it’s at when it’s really find doing something in the wintertime out in colorado it’s ultra-long-range i’ll take liquor them eligible. I’ve i’ve been to competitions where it’s really cold and guys will take their ammo and stick it under their shirt into their armpit to warm it up to a normal temperature so that they have the charts the data and can get the consistency that they expect from the round going off. Because there’s there will be a you. Put a forty degree around the barrel and you put a eighty degree round of the barrel in those to the velocities. The end of the barrel be drastically different between the two. It’s really about the powder temperature and so you will when it’s really really cold because i get so few chances to go out when it’s really cold. I like to go to someplace like the range we went to before. Let the get really cold. Because i don’t get a lot of data on them. If i can find out that for every ten degrees fahrenheit difference in miami so i’m gonna see or say ten feet per second difference in my velocity that i could extrapolate that at thirty degrees and other ten degrees colder twenty degrees colder than the fifty down at the range. I’d probably get him. See you know. Twenty twenty eight twenty feet per second out of the barrel. And i can make those adjustments and i can take a look at a at additional drop. Because i’m not gonna have the velocity that i would have adversely summertime and it’s ninety five or one hundred degrees we’re getting velocities. The will never see in the wintertime and so So i’m not going to get the drop that That i would expect At a thousand. Twelve hundred yards. Us really doesn’t i mean for the new shooter or the new hunter. There’s a lot of shooters out there. I should probably clarify and pleased. Pete like i started out the podcasting. But i don’t know anything about this. Okay so if i get this wrong then please correct me. But this really doesn’t come into play when you’re firing your handgun at the range or you’re taking your handgun out too and it doesn’t come into play when you’re hunting with your rifle and your shot’s going to be a hundred and fifty yards or seventy five yards or even two hundred yards really. I mean you’re talking about distances at far exceed that of i am i at obsolete. And that’s one of the reasons that’s one of the beauties of citing in your rifle it at a hundred yards. You know even though even though i’m planning on shooting plus or minus nine hundred thousand yards. I’m still cited in at one hundred yards in and the reason for that is a At one hundred yards wind is really not going to have a huge effect. Especially when i’m coming out of the barrel at close to three thousand feet per second with a three hundred grain sierra match king again you know it’s it’s it’s angles and a short is smaller small changing angles. When you are at a hundred yards. Does it make much difference. The precision is not as as important at the shorter distances. Yeah when i. When i take what i take my favorite hunting rifle out i will adjust the scope. I’ll step it up to To words its On center two hundred yards. And i know that that will i if i’m if i if take the shot correctly i’m going to be a plus or minus inch inch and a half from the muzzle all the way out to three hundred fifty almost four hundred yards.

00:30:14 – 00:31:47

So i don’t i don’t have to make any corrections. It was getting out to four hundred holden. Intra too high. But that’s it. That’s that’s the direction that i’m gonna have to make And so you know. That’s a one senate. Forget it you don’t have to. If you have a quick shot you gotta take Because somebody ’cause ’cause the he just happened to stop there and look around attorneys heading your direction then you take it and you know that that Your your accuracy. Here what is it the. What are the utah. You’re at you’re at one minute of animal right there. Yeah here that that That rounds gonna go right through the engine room white. Were right where you want it to drop. Drop them humanely and quickly while pete. Now we’re gonna talk more about this subject because it’s a very deep and And encouraging and i think very interesting subject to talk about with long range shooting but unfortunately we’ve run out of time for the public version of the podcast with the rest of. It’s going to be on patriot so if you’re on patriot. I want you to stick with me. If you’re not on patriot. I urge you to support us on patriots. That’s where you’re going to get all the exclusive content like the remainder of this podcast for one thing that you can’t get anywhere else if you’re on the public podcast player. And you’re not part of patriotic. Wanna thank you very much all of your support and wherever you go. Whatever you do stay safe. You’ve been listening to the GunGuy TV podcast.

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